My first wake-up call was in High School, which was about 30 years ago. We were required to study the constitution. The concept of emminent domain was simply astounding to me. The government at any time can take your property if it deems it necessary. Back then, it was just for emergencies like war (which was the intent). Now it is used as a way to build shopping centers and businesses. That was when I realized I didn’t really own anything. I was just borrowing it from the government. BTW, I’m one of those middle-American sheep ( a group it is politically correct to pre-judge). B-a-a-a-a-h-h-h!

“Bush is just doing what he is told. He is not a bad person…”

- I’m so sorry to break this to you, but YES he IS a bad person. Just “doing what you’re told” is a pathetic excuse for being either too lazy, too stupid, too corrupt, or choosing ignorance because it’s “easy”. He was NOT elected, he was appointed - by a biased Supreme Court, by unsecured voting machines, by friends and relatives in power, but NOT by the people. Our entire national treasury has been BANKRUPTED, our educational system has been shot in the face, our healthcare system can barely handle daily emergency care so forget about actual pandemic emergencies, injured soldiers are being systematically murdered by collection agencies and hospitals and left to die in the streets, our transportation network is badly crippled, we’ve LOST and ENTIRE major metropolitan city to a hurricane, private churches are taking authority over social services, I-R-A-Q, the extensive Bush-Bin Laden family connection has been ‘hushed’, we have NO SOCIAL SECURITY retirement system anymore, conservatives are invading people’s bedrooms to dictate sexuality…

The list goes on and on and on…

Are you seriously contending that G.W. doesn’t have a MAJOR role in this - he IS the president (which is a debatable point, but just for argument’s sake he is in office). G.W.Bush IS evil. Evil is in the details - killing someone is bad, but the reasons for killing them determines whether it’s an “evil” thing or not. And yes, Dummy Rumskull is the most recent incarnation of The Beast.

Have you heard the diarrhea spewing from Barbara Bush recently? Apparently, Al Gore didn’t have enough “royal blood” for her taste - which is funny since genetics show that “royal”/”purebred” bloodlines tend to have incestual history (the Happsburgs anyone?). And she actually SAID “Most of these people are poor anyways, the Superdome is probably much nicer than they’re used to” (or something very close to that). The Bush family is DEMENTED and CORRUPT - the ENTIRE FAMILY!!! None of them have Americans (PEOPLE not COMPANIES) in their best interest, only their immediate friends.

Granted, Clinton wasn’t a saint - but I believe he did what he felt was right (most of the time). The world respected Bill, and still does. G.W. managed to take all of the international support we had on 9/11 and turn it against us quite effectively. The world once hailed “We are all Americans today”, but now? The US is currently the most feared threat to global stability (and rightly so).

Sorry for ranting like this - but you pushed a button. And like most educated Americans today, it set me off a little. But anyways…

Welcome to the New Roman Empire, we hope you enjoy the show.

Just so you know, if I could vote, it would be Kerry or Gore. But thing is, most of the poor religious East US voted for Bush. You like it or not, he is the president now. But no, I don’t believe that the is a bad person at heart. He is just not very intelligent man. And that’s NOT his fault. He was born that way.

Stop beating the front man. Usually the front man is just the puppet. The time and age where the US president was the true power in the nation, has passed. And that happened after the death of Kennedy in ‘61. The only president since then with some true power in his hands was Bush Sr, and that’s just because he was coming from CIA and he knew all the tricks.

Jacob:

Though I am part of that great, unwashed religious group your seem to despise, I would actually call for less moralizing here.

E.G. “The Bush family is DEMENTED and CORRUPT ” and “YES he IS a bad person”. These serve very little purpose other than to inflame mindless arguments. I hated when Conservatives did the same to Clinton. I personally wrote to Bill Clinton in his worst of times during the “Scandal” to encourage him, even though I voted against him.

Instead, I think this part of your argument, Jacob, is more appropriate:

“G.W. managed to take all of the international support we had on 9/11 and turn it against us quite effectively. The world once hailed “We are all Americans today”, but now? The US is currently the most feared threat to global stability (and rightly so).”

That’s the territory we should be debating. It does very little good to Demonize or engage in Ad-Hominem revery.

Though I voted for Bush, I believe the Iraq debacle will haunt us all for a LONG TIME! I would also agree that our problems go far beyond Mr. Bush, and as an American, I think we need some deep introspection as a country. For the first time in history, we attacked a country based on what we “thought they might do”. I believe that, and not having U.N. support, were 2 very huge mistakes we will dearly pay for.

It’s really simple: the sorry state American politics is in has been caused by two things:

I) Money. As long as any person, company, or whatever can pour as much money as they please into political parties or politicians, buying their support that way, unltimited, unregulated, American politicians will NEVER serve the normal Americans, but only the ones that have the money to pay them. In my country, companies are not allowed to support politicians or parties at all, and individuals can only subsidise his party of choice for a very limited amount a year. Since all political parties must provide complete transparency financially speaking, not a cent goes in OR out without it being fully credited for. THATs how you keep money outside of politics.

2) Ditch the bi-party system. It don’t work. Choosing between two is close to just as bad as choosing one. There are more than two ways of solving a problem, but you guys will never know more than just two, because all you get to hear ARE those two options. BAD BAD BAD.

If you Americans do not fix these issues, your government is simply doomed to NOT serve the public’s interest.

I so absolutely agree with Mr. Howlerda on both points. You have pointed out 2 very good reasons why Democracy is but a “shadow” in the U.S. Money buys office and the exclusive nature of the 2-part system precludes any significant new ideas from entering the process (or really “new” candiates). However, the stranglehold of money and the 2-party system have a stranglehold on the very process (government) that would need to eliminate this problem. How would we change this in America without someone getting assasinated (literally or figuratively)!

“And that’s NOT his fault. He was born that way”
- I would debate that he was RAISED that way.

Yes, I did go ‘postal’ here - but this is a time in our country’s history where dissent is necessary. Leaders should not be excused for their mistakes simply because ’someone else told them to do that’. Leaders are responsible for making educated, informed decisions and when they make the wrong ones they must answer for them. If a leader chooses to surround themself with dishonest, misleading, and otherwise questionable individuals - it’s their OWN fault. Sure, everyone wants a piece of the power - but a true leader should know this and be prepared to honestly investigate things themselves. This isn’t so much an issue about “oh, he stole the election”, or “boo, he doesn’t support _X_ platform” - NO! This is about a methodical disassembly of our constitutional rights as citizens.

I don’t believe that using GW’s educational deficiencies as an excuse holds any value in the debate over who is to blame for our problems. The Bush administration has taken more questionable actions than any presidency in our history. Going so far as REWRITING climatology reports to debunk factual evidence regarding global weather changes - and this brings me to my point about what the greatest threat really is…

Why care if the world will be habitable in 50-100 years when you believe Armageddon will happen in your lifetime? Simple, you don’t! And Bush has emphatically proclaimed that he believes we are in the “final days”. People who don’t care about the future have absolutely no place in management of any sorts. Why not spend the entire treasury’s worth when you don’t think it will ever need to be paid back? Sure, go ahead - we’re good for it (right? [wink] [wink])

The threat is ignorance, not faith - and sadly, too many in the US believe you can only either have faith or believe in scientific methods I was raised Catholic, but determined that I am basically an agnostic - I believe only the dead know anything at all about the spirit world. I don’t think any less of people who have a faith that I disagree with - it’s when they try to impose their theology and institutions upon others that I disapprove. Churches are fine, even religious schools have their benefit to society - but when they have been used to supplant public services they have gone too far. The privatization of what were once public services and utilities does not only apply to corporations and contractors, now churches have been lured into the mix as well. I know many good, honest, church-going people that wouldn’t dare involve their spiritual life with politics - because of the fact that it’s simply wrong on so many levels. The level of religious fervor in the Bush administration is a threat to any objective, secular, open-minded thought anyone might have. And THAT’S the greatest threat.

“Stop beating the front man”

- Then who?

I’ll never stop taking swipes at GW, because I firmly believe he is a criminal and illegally gained control of the presidency not once, but twice. I am a minority and I fear for my rights, so until I’ve been quietly ’silenced’ I’ll keep ranting and raving hoping that - if only in vain, people will see where the buck must stop. This is a very dangerous group of people running the show over here - it may not look so scary from overseas (or maybe it does?), but when you live here and listen to what is happening to the government(s) it can be really terrifying.

Remeber the line?:
“Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
- GW does very little reading.

Need evidence? Here’s one of hundreds of articles…
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm

Jacob: You’ll like http://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html

In the US, everything is about perception. If you can be perceived to be good, people follow you. Much of middle America is populated by sheep. They follow. This explains the perliferation of religion and extreme views. One voice carries too much weight.

See, I hate conspiracy theories - or at least I used to. Sadly, I think we collectively ’spazzed out’ after 9/11, but at least we knew it was from Afghanistan - then this Iraqstrophe just ‘kinda happened’. It was evil cunning at it’s worst - to lie about how much the war would cost, cut taxes for the wealthy, give oil barons billions of dollars, spend just about all of Social Security, I mean - we’ve literally gone BACK in time! Maybe Y2k didn’t just affect computers - our brains are broken.

Announcer: Do you have “battered citizen syndrome”?

Our president says “Bring it on.” - and actually taunts suicidal killers to take their best shot at American citizens?! I get so @#$(self mod)*&!# about it, I lose train of thought and rant like this. I pray to wake up and find out the last six years didn’t really happen.

So Eugenia, it’s not just your imagination - democracy in America has changed. But it’s not what you think - it’s never really been a literal democracy, in fact there are few (if any) true democracies for us to historically refer to. Most modern governments have ‘democratic’ concepts, but even ancient Greece (correct my history, this is what I was told) didn’t allow women or slaves to vote (and American past as well). Most governments are republics, in which you must select a person to represent your view - and there inlies the problem. I don’t trust anyone to represent me, except me. A representative should be nothing more than an educated and honorable clerk. But the system in place has such a tight grip, it will take a full generation for real change to happen. Hopefully, we’ll build some schools and hospitals for them…

Q: Does your country count it’s debt in trillions?

>but even ancient Greece didn’t allow women or slaves to vote

This is correct. Greece’s democracy was for men only (and until 25 years ago, women still had no equality in Greece). But at least Greece had and continues to have an important law: you are not allowed to NOT vote on national elections. From the moment you are a citizen, you are part of the community, and therefore you are required to vote. Special exceptions for sick people, people who lost their papers or people abroad are of course given (I haven’t voted for years, as I live abroad). Otherwise you end up in prison for a few months, and in the ancient days, you were “exostricised” from Athens (sent away from home never to come back). I think USA would have been a better country politically if this law was here too.

This is not a case about freedom of not-voting, this is a case about applying freedom and care to others. Anyone who doesn’t vote means that he doesn’t care about the “common things”, and therefore, he should not be a full member of the country. Now, think that if an American was reduced to lose his full citizenship if he wouldn’t vote. Some will argue that this is not fair or democratic. I beg to differ. If that person doesn’t care to vote, he means that he doesn’t care about democracy in the first place. Therefore, he should not care about his citizenship either.

Think about it: more people voted for American Idol than they voted for Bush. American people need to get their head straight.

>and there inlies the problem. I don’t trust anyone to represent me, except me.

Well, this is another problem. How would you feel if you were appointed as a jury tomorrow morning and you had to go away from your family and work for some time? I bet you wouldn’t like it. And yet, there is such a law here in US where the PEOPLE serve as jury. Now, think that more globally: what if you were BUGGED DAILY with questions about voting yes or no about law 1564 and law 12674 and law 56752 ? Instead of doing some work, you would end up voting all day and doing research.

Unfortunately “representative democracy” is the best we can do today. Maybe in the future where robots will work for us, we will have more free time to philosophize. Until then, we must do our best to grow good people *as a society*, good people eligible for election, that can indeed represent the majority the best way they can. The best the society is, the best people it can create. And so there is a good chance that some of them will decide to follow a political career, in which case we all win.

And BTW, I don’t trust ALL the people that will vote for the right thing. Many people are _stupid_. In fact, the majority of humans today in this planet, are just that. But that’s democracy: what the majority wants. Remember well though, that what the majority wants is NOT always the BEST thing, ultimately. Most people are simply short-sighted, others are just stupid. Very few can see through and take a decision that will be good for down the road.

From that point of view, having representative democracy with the RIGHT representatives, is better. Sure, these “stupid” people will vote a representative too, but if most representatives are that good product of a good society I mentioned above, statistically we have better chances to see good representation of our affairs.